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The Teslas themselves give you real-time information on the charging status. So yes, it's a technicality in the sense you should still know how much energy you used to charge at a supercharger. You just don't have a dedicated meter on the outside of the vehicle.
How does that help the non-Tesla car owners that want to use the chargers? Note that the article talks about "Supercharger stations that are open to non-Tesla electric vehicles".
You need the Tesla app to use their chargers. That in itself should not be allowed, chargers should take payment cards directly. I think that's a requirement on new chargers only though.
Anyway, the app gives you the kWh delivered display in near realtime. Of course, it only works if you have a signal.
I'm at a loss to think of any vehicle that doesn't provide this information, so that probably isn't it. From the article, it sounds like maybe the supercharger network wasn't considered "public" because it was proprietary only to one brand of vehicle. They changed the way they're doing business and now subject to new rules.
Also seems like there's no penalties for now, so basically Tesla got a "fix-it-ticket" and as long as they are working to solve the problem it's fine to proceed. =Smidge=
Are you sure? I assumed it provided information on the amount of energy you're being charged for over the data link, as well as reporting it back to the mothership for display in the app.
It's not that the car is telling the charger how much it got, it's the charger telling the car how much has been charged for and it displaying it. Basically making a bring your own display for each charger. The question is if non-teslas are able to do the same thing with the information fed to them.
Imagine a gas pump that reported to the car through a data link the amount of fuel that has been delivered and relied on the car to display this amount.
I would really like it to be much more transparent the cost
You need a meter on the charger to show how much energy you're being charged for. If the car has its own charge metering, you can compare the numbers and see if any discrepancy is reasonable. You could theoretically display the charger-side metering on a display in the car if the charger provides that information over a data link, but it's simpler if there's a display on the charger itself.
I'm at a loss to think of any vehicle that doesn't provide this information
I'm at a loss to think of any vehicle that doesn't provide this information
Did you install your own energy meter in your house and do you tell the energy company the number without letting them verify the installation? Or (most likely) the energy company approved a specific meter installed by a certified installer in a tamper proof fashion and is either read out remotely or is legally allowed to be inspected.
Not sure why you think the *vehicle* should be in any way involved in the certifying the power delivered.
And if you charge a non-Tesla? The reason this is illegal (not "illegal") is that other cars are not assured to have these.
Non-Teslas need to use the app as well.
It does not matter anyways. The law requires the regulator to be able to verify the whole measurement chain. That would mean they would have to check every Tesla and every phone with this app. That is obviously not possible, so a display is required. If the morons at Tesla had bothered to ask, they would have known this.
The legal problem is, that a display of the amount of power actually supplied to the car must be present. The SoC of the car is irrelevant. This a requirement for all public accessible chargers in Germany, if the power is to be paid by amount. This applies also to the SC which can not be used by non Tesla drivers. A SC Station is by definition publicly accessible.
Obviously (well, presumably) it has a meter, since it's billing by the kWh (or else it wouldn't be in violation of the law).
It's just not displaying that data on the charger, where compliance officers can easily confirm whether it's being metered correctly, like they do with gas pumps. I assume it shows them on your bill, and I believe they have displays on the chargers so it should be a trivial update to have it displayed there too.
> I believe they have displays on the chargers
Tesla superchargers do not have displays.
They don't have a user interface of any kind, actually - everything is done through an app on a smartphone or in the car. =Smidge=
It wasn't an issue when they were only opened to Teslas. It became an issue now that Tesla has opened the Supercharger network to non-Teslas. This is why they have been slowly opening up a small number of them at a time. Work out the regulatory hurdles and move onto open the rest. At least the government seems to be understanding this as a process and letting them know of the requirements and giving them time.
Newer cars should report the VIN via the charging cable data link, so it should be as easy as plugging in once an account has been created. I don't know if Tesla support it for other makes yet.
I wonder if Tesla started installing the Superchargers before the law was in place. I'd imagine that any legislation passed for electric vehicle charging is fairly new.
Of course, I can't tell that from the freaking article, because it's both in a foreign language AND paywalled. Doesn't Slashdot read this stuff before posting it to the front page?
Tesla installed superchargers for their own cars (not the public) law does not apply.
Telsa decided to make it public , law now applies.
Probably because the law is stupid. Get the app, plug in your vehicle and charge it. Compare the amount of energy you're billed for to the amount of energy your vehicle says it got. What is the point of showing the amount physically on the charger and in the app? Don't want an app? Fair enough. They could also offer you a website to log into. Having a physical display serves no other purpose than simple convenience. No reason to have a law.
Gas pumps are different for legacy reasons but there's also n
There is a good reason not to put displays on devices that stand outside in the elements if the display is not absolutely needed. When I was working in the solar photovoltaic field, new inverters were being introduced that did not include displays and instead used an app.
LCD displays are sensitive to cold and also extreme heat. They will get damaged and stop working. Also adding the viewing port lessens the environmental hardiness of the enclosure.
I'm no fan of Tesla, but I would stand on their side
LCD displays are sensitive to cold and also extreme heat.
LCD displays are sensitive to cold and also extreme heat.
Gas stations have had LCD displays for decades now.
I agree this is a substantive violation rather than a technical one; Tesla is out of compliance with the law. But the regulator has decided to give them a warning and time to comply rather than just issue a fine. If Tesla hasn't come into compliance within the specified time, they can issue fines then. It's a sensible approach if they think the violation wasn't willful and Tesla is likely to fix the problem now they've been warned.
It's also a sensible approach because the alternative is that Tesla reverse course and close their superchargers to non-Tesla EVs. This would be a poor outcome for everyone concerned.
Handelsblatt reports that Tesla's Superchargers are considered "illegal"...
Handelsblatt reports that Tesla's Superchargers are considered "illegal"...
could quite easily have been "Handelsblatt reports that Tesla has built charging stations that don't meet regulations..." They're not being fined, just told to fix them, so no big deal I suppose.
May be someone just took the German language report and dropped it into Google Translate.
Nope, the original German text says that Tesla operates the largest number of illegal chargers. There is a metering law in Germany and chargers that charge by kWh instead of a flat fee but don't display the consumption are breaking it.
Except they did meet the regulations when they were built.
Tesla allowed the public to use them after they were built and now the regulation applies but not when it was built.
Silly rules, applied mindlessly, suck
Mindlessly? Want to bet the Daimler chargers face no such scrutiny?
Silly rules, applied mindlessly, suck
Silly rules, applied mindlessly, suck
Silly? Would you use a gas pump that didn't show you how much gas you pumped and just charged you "whatever"? I think not. The Tesla app alone isn't an acceptable solution -- it's not independent or independently verifiable, like an on-pump meter is.
The necessary data is on a vehicle screen or on the phone app. Silly is right.
The necessary data is on a vehicle screen or on the phone app. Silly is right.
And I guess those should just be trusted w/o any separate, independent corroboration and you'll just pay whatever. Guess you never double check any of your bills to ensure they're correct and you're not being overcharged or under served ... You're right, that would be silly.
How can you be so dense?
Your CAR is doing the metering. It knows the state of charge, it needs to, to function correctly. It knows how many kilowatts went in.
It's not just displaying what the charger said it was being sent.
So assume you're a regulatory body officer. You run around testing meters. You have a meter of your own, so what you do is plug the cable i to your own meter, pull some current, and check the display of the charging station against that of your meter.
Now you're testing a Tesla charging station. How does this go? "Fuuck I need a Tesla vehicle!" Or "Yo Jason, do you have a Tesla app installed?"
What if Tesla decides to have a pin & barcode for usage with their app? Ehat if their app displays the current of a specific vehicle's ID, and not of your meter?
What if you have flip phone?
Should a regulatory officer be required to jumo through every charging company's hoops to do their job?
Or should we get some sensible standard? E.g. "each charging station must display the billed amount of energy" - it's not f-ing rocket science, peanuts worth of hardware and a few hundred lines of code on an Arduino will do that.
That wouldn't work because there are losses in the cable. The cable heats up due to the resistance of the wires. For hundreds of kilowatts it's quite a significant amount of heat. In fact even the connection between the plug and socket on the car causes a significant amount of loss.
The kWh delivered seems to be measuring the DC output, rather than the AC input. So they would need to open the charger and attach both a current clamp and a voltage sensor to the DC output, before the cable to the car.
That wouldn't work because there are losses in the cable.
That wouldn't work because there are losses in the cable.
Even if the regulatory body followed the exact process of the GP that would still work, the losses would be characterised and corrected for to determine if the supply side meter is working correctly.
This is already done in the power industry.
Characterising the measurement system is also necessary for precision measurements as well, ever notice how 6+ digit precision multimeters use 4 cables instead of two for measurement? Or why the newer ATX12VO powersupplies have a pin called "voltage sense"
Silly rules, applied mindlessly, suck Silly? Would you use a gas pump that didn't show you how much gas you pumped and just charged you "whatever"? I think not. The Tesla app alone isn't an acceptable solution -- it's not independent or independently verifiable, like an on-pump meter is.
Silly rules, applied mindlessly, suck
Silly rules, applied mindlessly, suck
Silly? Would you use a gas pump that didn't show you how much gas you pumped and just charged you "whatever"? I think not. The Tesla app alone isn't an acceptable solution -- it's not independent or independently verifiable, like an on-pump meter is.
This. And that meter on the petrol pump there are regulations and standards to ensure it is correctly calibrated to ensure you're not being charged for petrol you didn't get. Same with meters on chargers. It's not like it's hard, every other company putting them in can comply with the law... but somehow Tesla is special.
Originally the regulation did not apply due to it not being a public charger. Telsa opened it up and now the regulation applies.
I think this is a requirements issue. Specifically: Where do you measure the usage by kwh? - Is it what is put out from the charger? - Is it what goes down the wire? - Is it what the battery accepts? - Is it some other method of measurement I have missed?
Maybe Germany has a standard, say, "wattage coming from the charger". Yet the Car UI might provide wattage the batteries absorbed. The cell phone app developed by Tesla might provide data for all 3 views, while other car manufacturers
On the "where do you measure" issue, the requirement is probably to show whichever is used to calculate what you pay.
It is more like every metering system that results in a bill has to be tested by an official lab and calibrated if needed every couple of years, receiving a seal of approval.
Silly rules, applied mindlessly, suck
Silly rules, applied mindlessly, suck
Sigh. Uninformed posts, applied mindlessly, suck even harder...
Call them a pedo country on twitter and be done with it.
Call them a pedo country on twitter and be done with it.
Call them a pedo country on twitter and be done with it.
A creepy country [cnn.com]? There are far worse creepy countries on the planet than Germany.
No supercharger is illegal, they are undocumented. They deserve some dignity as sophisticated multi-faceted electronics that are just trying to feed batteries, so use the right terminology for fucks sake.
The superchargers are not in compliance with the law, hence they are unlawful, which in Latin is "illegal".
This is a non-story about a non-problem.
It was legal for Tesla to do it with app-only metering when it was only open to "members". It is not legal when the service is open to the general public.
Germany is not shutting down the service. Germany is not even fining Tesla. Germany just told Tesla to add the meters.
Welcome to the 21st century Germany!
Except if you've ever seen non-Tesla chargers in public, you've probably noticed one thing they all have in common: they're most likely broken.
One of the major upsides to a Tesla versus another EV is that Tesla maintains their own chargers and aren't reliant on third party "charging networks" to handle charging. Non-Tesla chargers are a giant mess of third party ownership and broken chargers. Who owns a given charger? The charging network or the property owner it's installed at? Sometimes: neither! A third
Tesla fans are a lot like rabid Mac fans.
Adding a display just adds another part to fail that's otherwise unnecessary. Part of the charging process is the car monitoring power input as it needs to determine how much power the battery can accept at a given point of time anyway. It already has that data and can provide it to the user. A display adds nothing but another part to fail.
If you're billed by a unit, then the device that counts the number of units you use has to be calibrated and measured and verified.
When you buy a gallon of gas, the pump must give you at least a gallon of gas. It can't short change you that gas - you paid for a gallon, you better get a gallon. In fact, if the pump is in error, it's usually in your favor - you paid for a gallon, but got more than a gallon of gas. This is generally allowed, but of course it hurts the gas station because they're giving away gas, but is generally preferable to shortchanging the customer (which if someone complains can easily shut down the station for measurement).
Likewise, if you go grocery shopping, you'll find the scales in the produce area are marked "Not for trade" which means they aren't calibrated, but the scale at the checkout stand will have a sticker showing when it was last calibrated because if you paid for 2lbs of oranges, you better have gotten 2lbs of oranges.
If you're at an EV charging station, and paying 10 cents per kWh (this is on the low side), and you end up paying $10, you better have been given 100kWh of electricity.
But it's not so simple, because we have losses - so is it 100kWh measured at the substation? At the charging station? Or at the plug? Likewise, you may have been billed $10, but your car says it only took in 98 kWh - did you get cheated?
Of course, given the actual rate is closer to 30-50 cents per kWh, this is starting to get expensive quick.
Thus, a meter needs to be calibrated properly and charging properly - taking into account losses that it needs to. And so the consumer has confidence that they are getting the electrons they paid for.
Basically there are rules on how you charge for things, and Germany wants to make sure that it comes out right. After all, it helps both sides - if the EV charging station said it delivered 50kWh, but your car said it only got 48kWh, did the charging station cheat you out of a dollar? If that number came from a sealed box with a German metrology calibration sticker on it, showing it's in calibration then it can be your car is simply off due to internal losses or other things. But it also means you see 50kWh on the meter, you can't be billed for 51kWh.
The app tells you what you were charged and hiw much it cost. The information you would have on a display is exactly the same. You cant charge without this app. So, the requirement is stupid.
Likewise, if you go grocery shopping, you'll find the scales in the produce area are marked "Not for trade" which means they aren't calibrated, but the scale at the checkout stand will have a sticker showing when it was last calibrated because if you paid for 2lbs of oranges, you better have gotten 2lbs of oranges.
Likewise, if you go grocery shopping, you'll find the scales in the produce area are marked "Not for trade" which means they aren't calibrated, but the scale at the checkout stand will have a sticker showing when it was last calibrated because if you paid for 2lbs of oranges, you better have gotten 2lbs of oranges.
Wait what? That's a thing in the states? In Europe you just go to the scales in the produce section, press a button and it gives you a barcode which you scan on the way out. No need to holdup the checkout line with pointless weighing.
Adding a display just adds another part to fail that's otherwise unnecessary.
Adding a display just adds another part to fail that's otherwise unnecessary.
I know, right? The other day we went to fill the car up with petrol and we had to drive around for hours to find a pump where the display wasn't broken.
Adding a reliable display to a charger is right up there with "N=NP?"
Tesla chargers are just as often broken, it's simply that in some places there are more of them. In Europe they are a minority in some countries now, other charge networks have more chargers installed. Many locations have chargers from multiple companies.
Beware reports of "broken" chargers. Often it's just an issue with a new vehicle that has only recently come onto the market. Seems that there are some variations in the CCS protocol they talk, and maybe different battery chemistry resulting in an unexpecte
Except if you've ever seen non-Tesla chargers in public, you've probably noticed one thing they all have in common: they're most likely broken.
Except if you've ever seen non-Tesla chargers in public, you've probably noticed one thing they all have in common: they're most likely broken.
Citation needed. And I've seen a metric shitton of non-Tesla chargers in public. Like literally everywhere. Heck there are 2 in our street, 6 at the petrol station down the road, and that's just within 250m of my house (I didn't check the adjacent streets).
Here's you citation, dipshit: J.D. Power & Associates [msn.com]
But, oh yeah, wait, I forgot...since the almighty garbz says he's seen a bunch of chargers that weren't broken then clearly the rest of the world is wrong.
I guarantee the data the meter will present is going to be what is generated from your ever changing app on the phone. The car is a more authoritative source for how much power is being consumed, and is likely what the charges are based on.
I guarantee the data the meter will present is going to be what is generated from your ever changing app on the phone. The car is a more authoritative source for how much power is being consumed, and is likely what the charges are based on.
It can't be based on what the car reports or it isn't fair to everyone. Charging circuits are inefficient and different in-car charging circuits will take different supply power to result in 100Ah of charge. If Tesla's in-car charging system can take 100 Watts of power and store 92 Watts but the Mercedes can only charge/store 88 Watts, which do you charge the user for? The different amount the cars accepted or the original 100 Watts that the charging station used?
You can get an idea of the problem if you
Welcome to the 21st century Germany!
Welcome to the 21st century Germany!
Literally no country in the world allows you to rely on some 3rd party vendor app for custody transfer of energy. And note that this is only an issue when it becomes 3rd party (why the fuck would I install a Tesla app just to charge a car, I don't install a bp app, or Amoco app, or Exxon app, or Total app, or...
the cellphone function as the car keys? Can the car operate without the phone?
I don't see that Tesla has to close these chargers down - simply put a sign on them saying German govt has decreed only Teslas can charge here.
That would not work, obviously. It would still be in violation of the law.
And not "illegal", but straight illegal. Yes, I get that stupid US assholes cannot understand that other places have different laws. These are the law there though and violating them is illegal.
The fix is easy though, just add a visible meter. If Tesla had bothered to find out they would have known that before they installed these.
Not quite - they would have bothered when they opened them up to the public. Before they were public, the app was sufficient. Now that it's open to the public, this law now applies. And they're not the only one - all of the CSS chargers have to have them if they are available for public usage. Tesla's just a high profile clickbait target.
Has nothing to do with public. It has to be metered correctly, but the app is not a correct meter.
It gets the very same data from the charger as you would want on the display.
It is not part of the charger and hence does not fulfill the law because it cannot be verified to be correct for all instances. This is a fraud-prevention measure, after all.
Well so are scales at a fruit shop. You could just trust the salesman's eye and hand instead (which is right most of the time, they do this for a living).
I'm guesing your advanced country doesn't have them anymore, right?
Bad comparison. The app connects eventually with the ammeter in the charger, the difference will be where the display is, not in the measurement device.
This is like the fruit shop removing the additional user facing display, and offering you to view the weight through an app, while the cashier also has the weight listed on their display.
Bad comparison. The app connects eventually with the ammeter in the charger, the difference will be where the display is, not in the measurement device.
Bad comparison. The app connects eventually with the ammeter in the charger, the difference will be where the display is, not in the measurement device.
So in order for a regulator to be able to check the data on the meter they'll have to download proprietary software of the vendor and agree to the TOS. They'll have to have a smartphone, and agree to Google TOS. And maybe someday Tesla will require a PIN or something to be able to use their software... or require you to actually, you know, own a Tesla. Or "Create an account" or something.
You can't see anything wrong with that?
The regulator want to jump through anyone private corporation's hoops, and they're
Government seal is up to...duh duh duh...the government to put there.
As for the display, it is right there on your app.
You are poor, and can't afford a phone, but somehow, you can afford an electric car? How will you pay for your electricity in any of the cases you mention? The payment is through the app, without the app, you can't pay, so it is moot that you don't know how much they sent you, as you can't get the "pump" to start anyways.
I guess you have never heard about fraud by vendors. Well, German lawmakers have because they are nowhere near as dense as you are and German law makes sure vendors stay honest.
Way back in 1831, Michael Faraday, was asked by an inquiring politician about the usefulness of this newfangled "electricity" stuff. His apocryphal reply: "I know not, but I wager that one day your government will tax it".
Way back in 1831, Michael Faraday, was asked by an inquiring politician about the usefulness of this newfangled "electricity" stuff. His apocryphal reply: "I know not, but I wager that one day your government will tax it".
when other companies are noted for having the same issue.
when other companies are noted for having the same issue.
Which ones? And in how far have they been treated differently?
From an article in autoevolution [autoevolution.com]
But Tesla and its 1,800 German chargers are not alone in this situation. Only some EV charging companies are compliant and tell customers how many kWh are being sent to their cars. Others, like Efacec or Delta, must go through a modification process until the end of 2023 as well.
But Tesla and its 1,800 German chargers are not alone in this situation. Only some EV charging companies are compliant and tell customers how many kWh are being sent to their cars. Others, like Efacec or Delta, must go through a modification process until the end of 2023 as well.
So at least Efacec and Delta, and they are being treated the same as Tesla.
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